Why Casino Affiliates Distrust Affiliate Programs

Betsson affiliate Manager accused of 'retagging' players.

The forum at GPWA has been abuzz lately unfortunately for all the wrong reasons. One of the hot topics at the forum entails former Betsson Casino affiliate manager, Christiaan Alexander Van Dalen.

He (Van Dalen) allegedly de-tagged the players affiliates referred to the operator, siphoned them off to his own portal casinos and received a commission on them. As such it prompted me to write a letter to Per Eriksson, CEO of Net Entertainment.

In my email to him I stressed that the stats reports most affiliate programs provide affiliates with are questionable at best. Please note, I’m referring specifically to the NetEnt software since it’s one of the vendors used by Betsson Casino. Many casinos partner with multiple platforms nowadays. The emphasis here is on transparency and honesty. To put it blunt, affiliates have reached a stage where they’re tired of being shafted by unscrupulous programs. Ask any affiliate within the industry, this person will tell you that the credibility of a program’s stats report has and will always be a bone of contention.

”The one important factor that’s missing in new legal regulation, is the fact that there is NO protection policies or policing software built into legal regulation and/or licensing laws to protect the affiliate, we need to be protected as well – we are just as vulnerable as the player!” Heather Gartland, TopBoss Group

However, this is where the problem begins-casino affiliates don’t have access to the original stats reports and firmly believe there’s a certain amount of ‘tampering‘ involved. Going forward, I’ve proposed that NetEnt furnish affiliates with the original stats report and not a ‘watered-down‘ version some programs give us. The idea here is to compare the stats report from the vendor to that of the affiliate program’s. The following information is not given to us: from which country the player is from, total deposits and withdrawals made within a given period, did the player self-exclude, why has the account been locked and is the player still active. If I receive any feedback from Per Eriksson I’ll post it.

”The affiliate software provider is the customer of the affiliate program – not of the customer. They would not be compelled to share the findings of the audit with you (the affiliate). Additionally, I’d speculate that if an affiliate made a “request”, the provider would not be legally obligated to provide the request. Might be different with a court order though. Shay, GPWA Forum

How Casino Affiliate Marketing Works

Many portal casinos employ a ”reviewer affiliate” model wherein an affiliate with some tie to the business purports to ”review” the services found on the website. The review will often contain links back to the site or service being reviewed and those links often have affiliate tracking codes embedded in them. This ensures payment or other compensation is sent to the affiliate for any resulting sign-ups or clicks.

In the United States, the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) has crafted guidelines for such ”endorsements” that require that the review or endorsements disclose any ”material connection” between the reviewer and the company. As such the company responsible for the review will be legally responsible for it. The purpose of such regulations is consumer protection. This is especially true with promoting controversial entertainment activity such as gambling.

While a review embedded with affiliate codes in the links back to the casino may be recognized as an obvious ”paid review”, some players may think that the website provides the ”best” casino game or offers the ”highest payouts”. Careful monitoring of affiliate activity is an essential component of any best practices regime. If we don’t expect more-we’ll have to settle for less.

The software vendors will not give affiliates the original player stats. Here’s why, they see it as a costly experience setting up proper levels of reporting, legal agreements with licensees and sub licensees. If this is the case affiliates would be more than happy to chip in. We’d rather work on a 15% revenue share basis that’s credible than with one that’s 35% and dodgy.

”Everyone with significant database/SQL experience also knows how easy it would be, even if you have that unique identifier, to, for example, steal an affiliate’s hard work and investment merely by changing another unique identifier: i.e., change the affiliate ID appearing next to the unique customer ID in the data row to something else and – presto – the affiliate is no longer earning a penny from the customer they referred, but someone else is certainly getting richer at the affiliate’s expense. Ever wonder why some of those players go strangely dormant for good, for instance, even if you did get a unique customer ID, or why those nameless and faceless “1’s” fade into oblivion?” Big City Jack, GPWA Forum

Per Erickson, CEO of Net Entertainment Casino Software

My Letter To Per Eriksson CEO of Net Entertainment

Dear Sir/Madam,

To Whom it may concern.

I trust that this email is not unsolicited.

My name is Otto Bergstrom I’ve been in the online gambling industry for more than a decade now and co-owner of portal casino: Cassaon-casino (www.cassaon-casino.com/about-us/).

I’d like to draw your attention to the following matter; it concerns Betsson Casino which uses the NetEnt software. I’m a huge fan of this software and hold it in the highest esteem.

Recently an affiliate by the username of ”Triple7” started a thread over at GPWA (Gambling Portal Webmasters Association) alerting the community that an affiliate manager by the name of Christiaan Alex Van Dalen (Betsson Casino) de-tagged players from their affiliates’ accounts and siphoned them off to artificial accounts. As such affiliates were not only losing these players but the commission generated from them as well. Since Betsson uses the NetEnt software it might tarnish the company’s (NetEnt) otherwise sterling credibility.

”A former affiliate manager for Nordic online gambling operator Betsson AB has been charged with stealing €153k from the company through the use of fraudulent commissions.” Calvin Ayre

In any online casino operation, affiliates have always been placed at the bottom end of the spectrum. These threads would attest to what I’ve just said.

Sadly, this type of ”thievery” has been going on for quite some time and absolutely nothing is being done about it. We as affiliates are at the mercy of the programs we promote. Which brings me to my question and proposal.

In future, would it be possible for affiliates to gain access to the stats (audit) reports of the NetEnt software? Reason being, Net Entertainment is the affiliate software provider for numerous affiliate programs. In other words, the stats reports the affiliate programs provide us with must corroborate that of NetEnt’s.

It has come to a stage where we as affiliates no longer trust the stats reports of the affiliate programs we promote-to be honest there’s simply just too much discrepancy involved. To compound matters further, even if we have absolute proof that the casinos’ affiliate programs are ripping us off we have no legal recourse to see that justice is served.

Pertaining to affiliates. To expound upon the ultimate goal of protecting the flow of funds, rules governing gaming accounting, audit and record keeping must enjoy top billing. This can be classified into 2 categories:

1. Ensuring that the government receives the proper tax revenue.
2. Prevent unscrupulous persons from stealing from affiliates and sharing private information of players.

I firmly believe, if affiliate commissions proper auditing remain unchecked it can exacerbate fraud, money laundering and could even be used to fund terrorist organizations.

Accounting, audit and record keeping rules help fulfill the policy goal by offering the opportunity to trace revenue and the distribution of revenue. In short, it ensures that money is not being skimmed from gaming operations.

Affiliates don’t always get the recognition they deserve and constitute the backbone of the internet gambling industry.

I trust that this email will enjoy your soonest attention and that you’ll appreciate the gravity of the situation when it comes to affiliate commissions’ reporting.


Otto Bergstrom

Update: I received a rather terse response from NetEnt. Suffice it to say this was to be expected. The company spokesperson even got my surname wrong, I guess that says it all. Also, they seemed to have missed the gist of my email completely.

”Dear Mr. Bergman,

Regarding your e-mail sent to us/NetEnt on November 30th:
NetEnt is in no position to comment on occurrences between you and Betsson.
Also, as a compliant company we have no possibilities to share confidential data with third parties.
Best Regards,



Perhaps the biggest oversight in the regulation of online gambling is the lack of protection casino affiliates receive. Jurisdictions must structure their license policies in such a manner that it also incorporates affiliates and not only the operators. I understand the costs and legal issues involved with setting up and online casino-it’s not easy. But, all we ask for is transparency and honesty.



  1. Hi Otto,

    Always good to debate with you. Thanks for the vote of confidence as well.

    I think it’s possible to audit without access to the source data. There are sure signs to look for as well and basically if you find a program reasonably suspect they will then need to prove otherwise. You need at least one person with auditing experience on your team.

    Speak soon.

    Best regards,

  2. Hi Lloyd,

    You’re welcome and likewise.

    If a program is circumspect, 100% of the times they refuse to be audited and herein lies the problem. This is why I proposed that the vendors provide us with the original stats reports to corroborate that of the affiliate programs’.

    However, I do understand that this is easier said than done but if they see us as a valuable commodity then it shouldn’t be a hassle.

    1. Hi Otto,

      If programs aren’t prepared to deal with reasonable concerns about reporting just don’t work with them period.

      It’s important for affiliates to also get info on who they should and shouldn’t work with regards to program integrity.

      Netent can’t provide this level of reporting without significant investment in reporting systems and legal agreements with the licensees and sub licensees.

      This would be a huge exercise. There are other ways for building confidence between an operator/program and an affiliate, like showing gaming platform stats when unexplained discrepancies are reasonable identified in the affiliate program affiliate interface reporting.

      Also, some affiliates use variable parameters to track every click – we have this in place. What do you think?

      Best regards,

  3. Hello Otto,

    you are no bumlicker, no apple shiner and for sure no uneducated booby. You are a truth seeker with backbone, and I admire you for your straightforwardness and energy.

    In the meantime the casino industry in large parts is a rotten apple which spoils the whole barrel. Nothing but a soulless money making machine, and the fuel is hypocrisy, cover-up and downplay.

    Blackmailing, muzzling and telling the untruth are the order of the day. As long as people will open their wallet to pay for sponsorships or other things no one wants to know the anwser to the question: “Who is it?”

    Criminals and jailbirds are controlling a lot of programs and casinos but the majority is playing the game of love, peace and harmony. In this industry it’s not who you are, it’s who you know. So the fistful of honest people working as affiliate manager for the programs will be gunned down in the long run by disillusionment, defenselessness and the call for help from their inner voice that will confide to them that they play the wrong instrument.

    -I have seen with my own eyes player disappearing one hour later they signed-up.
    -I know, that ghost accounts were or will be created by affiliate manager or program directors to switch also high rollers from the webmaster account to this ghost accounts as long as they go broke. After this the expressed player will be switched back to the webmaster. For the webmaster the player only was on vacation. No suspicion arises.
    -I can proof, that privacy data from webmasters will be shared and sold on conferences.
    -Evidences about questionable practices e.g. about Income Access just disappear from the public.
    -Big scammers like Ladbrokes are the main sponsor of conferences, in this case the conference in Berlin, Germany 2015 and no one was disturbed by that fact.
    -The ordinary affiliate manager in forums like GPWA are working and writing under an unbelievable pressure, because the boss paid for the sponsorship, and most of them are not allowed to write free. And if it comes to criminal actions within the program: Who pays the piper, calls the tune.

    And finally, Otto: As a thank-you for all the hard work to improve conditions for the honest people on both sides of the table, critics and skeptics like you and me will be threatened, intimidated and attacked.

    Well, men of our calibre have a lot of patience and a lot of staying power, and the long run proves us right.


    1. Hi Leopold,

      Thank you for the compliment on the article much appreciated.

      We need a proper reporting system that’s transparent plus an affiliate body in each of the major jurisdictions (Alderney, Gibraltar, Isle of Man, Malta, UK etc.) that’s made up of legal experts (attorneys) that sues a program that de-tagged or tampered with affiliates’ commissions. That said, this will only be done if there’s concrete proof of any illicit dealings. As is the case with the recent Christiaan Van Dalen-Betsson case.

      Now the million dollar question. How can we protect ourselves?

      1. Casino owners, affiliate managers or any casino employee must undergo a polygraph test. The test is there to determine if the individual has been involved with any unscrupulous behaviour: stole player data bases, criminal activity/record, money laundering, de-tagged high-value players from affiliate accounts before, must not operate own portal casinos etc.

      2. As mentioned previously, set up a proper body that represents affiliates. Obviously this won’t be easy but I firmly believe that it can be done. If every affiliate pays a member fee of $100 per year and you have a thousand affiliates it’s $100,000. The funds would be used to protect our interest. Ten to one there will be many other alternatives but these are the most important ones I can think of now.

      I agree with you that the industry is extremely corrupt but I think more so from an affiliate point of view. Regrettably affiliates were better off a few years ago than we are now. Nowadays, we have to contend with highly unscrupulous programs and then there’s Google…

      I think the industry has improved a lot for the player, i.e. responsible gaming policies, quality promotions, rewards systems and innovative gaming software. Players have a lot of information at their disposal now and more gambling ‘native’ than ever before.

  4. Hi there, I just wanted to say great article and I wish more affiliates would come together on this issue!

    ‘-Evidences about questionable practices e.g. about Income Access just disappear from the public.’

    I would love to hear more about this!

    1. Hi Christine,

      Very nice of you to stop by.

      Thanks a lot for posting the link to the article I’ve written over at AGD and the compliment! Must say it was a pleasant surprise when I saw it.

      Yes, the time has come for affiliates to unite, the sooner the better. Heather Gartland (TopBossgroup) made an excellent point when she said that ‘new legal regulation’ must be imposed that protects us from unethical programs. It would be great if the jurisdictions can initiate this.

      I’ve heard about the Income Access stats issues over at GPWA, and from the sound of things many affiliates are not happy about it. Seems like the same old song and dance all over again.

      What I proposed was that instead of working through an affiliate program only, the software providers must also furnish us with the stats reports. In other words straight from the source. Then again the terse response I’ve received from NetEnt tells me they’re not to keen on the idea.

      It will be very interesting to know the amount of players affiliates refer to an operator percentage wise as opposed to direct sign ups. I’ve been told that it can range from 5 to 25%.

  5. Thanks for writing this. I saw the link to this article at Affiliate Guard Dog. I agree 100% with all of your comments, and especially the idea of software providers sending the stats. (and why not?!) For the mean time what we have done with the World Casino Directory is to create an algorithm to detect suspicious behavior and rank our groups accordingly which has enabled us to get a grip on the rampant theft! (I posted more details at AGD)

  6. Hi Bernard,

    You’re welcome and thanks for agreeing with me.

    Sounds like a complicated process for implementing this algo of yours, kudos to you for doing it. I guess you’ve picked up loads of ‘bogus stats’ reports over the years?

    One of the biggest challenges is to get the software providers on board to provide us with the original player stats. If we can accomplish this is will ‘revolutionize’ the industry to a certain extent. Unfortunately it’s no easy feat.

  7. Great article and a very touchy subject. What bothers me is that we never get any comments from the AMs at all. Their strategy is to not answer any questions regarding the issue and to be totally quiet until the dust settles and everything is back to normal.

    Everybody knows shaving exists and is a common practice. As it is now, there is no way affiliates can prove that players have been de-tagged or that the stats have been tampered with. I know myself from working for an affiliate program in the retail business that it is extremely easy to just delete/edit commissions.

    The problem with the Betsson guy is not that he did it but that he was able to do it – but that the system made it possible for him to do it without any affiliate noticing. He got caught and that’s good. How many are doing the same / have done the same without getting caught? He is not the only rotten apple in this industry for sure.

    Unfortunately I think it is difficult to get more transparency. The super affiliates must start demanding more insight as well and not settle for anything but full transparency when it comes to the stats. There is really no reason why affiliate backends should not show things like number of deposits, number of withdrawals, last activity of a player, country, number of bets. These numbers are already there but are just turned off for the affiliates. All the stats should be up for grabs. Of course nothing that can link an identity should be revealed, this is very important!
    When you ask an AM (affiliate manager) why they don’t turn it on it’s always some weird answers that it’s not possible, they are updating their platform, soon, they are gonna talk about it – nothing really happens in the end.

    In order to make this industry more fair and transparent we need posts like these, talk about it in forums, but the best thing would be if we could see proof of all the wrongdoings. A lot of affiliates say they can prove misconduct but they actually never show them. We really need some solid proof that will shake the industry by its foundations. May it be an old AM that has been in the industry that has seen it with his/her own eyes (whistle blower) or other but it needs to happen.

    Leopold, you are saying that you have proof of shady things from the industry. What is keeping you out from posting them out in the open? (not trying to bash or anything, just curious)

    Thanks again for a great blog post about a very important subject!

    1. Hi Steve,

      Many thanks for your sharing your thoughts with us. Having read your comment I’m all the more concerned now.

      The thing that still surprises me is that many affiliates are fully aware that shaving occurs but still don’t bother to do anything about it. You made a very good suggestion that the super affiliates must start pushing the ‘transparency initiative‘. I reckon it’s the only way we’re gong to make any headway.

      Maybe most folk are simply too scared to rock the boat or afraid that their sites might be the victim of negative SEO. I know of a super affiliate whose site has been the victim of this unscrupulous tactic when he blacklisted a highly unethical program. I now understand why programs deliberately withhold certain information from us-thanks for mentioning it.

      Software providers must furnish affiliates with their reports instead of solely relying on the affiliate programs’. I’m just curious how many tens of thousands of dollars (maybe even millions) are stolen from affiliates every year.

    2. Great post Steve. Nice also to see so many people following http://www.cassaon-casino.com

      Yes, in many backends you can change banner tags. Microgaming backends have an encrypted banner tag and they get an eCogra audit some at least. The question here is does the affiliate system and reporting run directly off the MGS backend or through a second database…

      We give player level detail but even if you follow your bigger players through some obscure player ID because the private one is of course confidential. What happens if the player just decides to stop playing somewhere else after a while? Does the casino need now to prove that the player is no longer active and hasn’t been detached?

      I think it is possible to provide transparency regarding the casinos policy for changing tags because sometimes the tags are simple messed up because of technical reasons for example. This can be set and then we need to finance a third party audit that ensures the casino is sticking to these rules and a few other agreed points.

      So if we deduct the audit fees in calculating our net revenues we can then agree on an appropriate audit and auditor and disclosure.

      This is just an idea but interested to hear your guys thoughts.

      Have a good evening, cheers,


      1. There are so many ways for casinos to fiddle with the stats.

        Another one that would be very hard to prove is negative months. I often think of that when I negotiate a better deal with any casino. Let’s say I manage to increase my revenue share deal from 30% to 40% – how can I know that the casino simply won’t add 1-2 extra “negative months” for my account and by that nullifies my bump in revenue share?

        We promote a large number of casinos and there are always casinos that has more than double negative months than other casinos (over a large period of time). This makes you suspicious. I wish that was not the case but with the low level of trust in this industry makes you very paranoid.

        This is why I want to be able to follow a specific player through the entire life cycle (bets, deposits, withdrawals, cashbacks, bonuses, logins, deposit methods, what time did the player play etc etc). This would not only give me more confidence promoting the casino but would also help me promote the casino in a better and more cost-efficient way. It is key to know your customers and right now we affiliates don’t. To be able to see this kind of information would help me make better decisions in my campaigns and media buys and this would make both the casino and me earn more money for sure. It is sad that many casinos don’t see it this way. Why is the reason we don’t see this information now? Is there a valid reason for that?

        Again, I am not interested in any private data – data than can link a player to an identity. This is very important to state since many casinos pull up this argument when you ask for more stats.

        Another way of increasing the transparency would be to have more frequent updates or to be able too see player activity in real time. I know that this would take some effort to implement but it is far from impossible. Some affiliate programs update their stats once per day and justifies that by that it is costly and takes more computer power to do it more often.

        Another way of limiting de-tagging is to work with user permissions. Not every affiliate manager should be allowed to re-tag players or change commission. Not every employee should be able to do operations that might give them the chance to do something unethical. Stricter user permissions locally is very important in any sensitive system.

        Why is it that not every employee in a bank can’t transfer money between the customers accounts or abuse the system? Because the systems were built so that they just can’t, they are not allowed to, it’s being supervised. Build the affiliate systems more like the banking systems or other sensitive systems.

        If you have to detag or change something in the affiliate backend it would be easy to implement that you have to state a reason why you did the change. This reason would be visible to the affiliates. If a player has committed fraud, they can flag him for that but you will be able to see that as well as an affiliate. If you change the commission for a day, you must enter a reason and we can see that something has been changed. This is not rocket science! Systems where abuse or improper use exists everywhere today.

        I remember there was a website a few years back that did audits on casinos (FDTs, deposits, tagging etc) and posted the results out in the open. I don’t remember the name but they closed down unfortunately. Saw in over at CAP.

        Lloyd, that is an important question you are asking (what happens if a whale just stops playing by himself?). That would not be a problem if there is full transparency in the industry. The affiliates would accept the fact that players move on or runs out of money. But with the current climate in the industry you always get suspicious, and I hate that. Trust must grow organically. If affiliates get more stats they will start trusting the casinos more not screwing them over and both parties will earn more money in the long run.

        The reason why affiliates don’t demand more transparency might be because many are happy with their current earnings. They might be afraid of loosing what they have. They might not understand that statistics is the most important thing in doing business online. Maybe they don’t know what to do with all the data. Maybe they are just happy to get a few extra $$$ each month.

        If you compare the casino affiliate business to other businesses the transparency is way lower in our industry. In other marketing industries it would be unthinkable not getting access to all available stats. In many ways the igaming industry is way behind.

        I think that the first casino that is really transparent with everything will gain a lot and be ahead of many other conservative casinos. I would happily give more exposure to a casino that is fully transparent (given that the product is good as well).

        Don’t get me wrong, fraud is happening on both sides of the fence – both from affiliates and from casinos. I am more than willing to have a discussion how to minimize the affiliate fraud and I am more than willing to share my stats with the casinos. That could help them improve their products as well. Affiliate marketing should be a mutual relationship where both parties earn. Where we help each other in order to maximize the profits. Sadly, that is not how it works now.

        1. Hi Steve,

          APCW – J Todd – right? Regarding the auditing…?

          Even banks get robbed by their employees but most banks and online casinos for that matter have protocol about who can do what and limit employee access so that they can strictly control any options to make manual adjustments.

          Another point is regarding the random manipulation of results. Please consider that a casino can only report off one main database or else the numbers will get so confusing it will be impossible to manage the business. So, if a casino retags a player – they are retagged for both affiliates and internal reports for example.

          Each casino uses different gaming platform, reporting system and affiliate software configurations – so the first step is to understand the configuration of the casino you want to work with and then from there to design the appropriate audit.

          Therefore, you need (1) to understand the configuration of the casinos reporting and database management and (2) to check the casinos protocol and their systems to ensure it is strictly adhered too; and (3) to check that both affiliate reports and internal casino management reports use the same data.

          1. Lloyd, yes, that is a huge problem as well. Many casinos have their own developed affiliate backends that are poorly coded.

            I think that the major platforms such as Netrefer & Income Access needs do take the lead in order for the others to follow when it comes to transparency. They have the knowledge and manpower to build in such features. To make really good reporting features that is transparent (but not revealing private info).

            Many of the stats are already there. We know that they are simply turned off since some casinos are showing more than other even though they are using the same platform.

            If I knew that all the Netrefer casinos had really good transparency, security features, comprehensive reports and could be trusted I would def work only with Netrefer casinos. It is really as simple as that for me.

  8. GAP? What is that short for?

    Well, according to me there is alot of missing in every affiliate software platform. Not all Netrefer casinos are even showing the same stats. An example is Gross Revenue.

    As I said in an earlier post. I would like to see as much as possible but at least number of deposits, number of withdrawals, withdrawals amount, a breakfown of all the costs (licence fee, bank fees, bonus cost etc etc), number of bets/spin if applicable, country of origin of the player etc etc etc. Basically as much as possible! I want the affiliates to have as much data as possible and that it would be up to use if we want to use them or not. Not all affiliates know what to do with the data and that is fine. But the tools should be out there and not hidden from us as it is today.

    We still only see the very very basic stats and that has not changed for ages. We know nothing about our players – we have to guess. In this day and age it is crucial to have as much metrics as possible about your audience in order to be able to make good business decisions that will make all parties more money in the long run.

    The iGaming industry is still way behind the rest of the affiliate industry when it comes to thinking new and outside of the box. Just because the current model was good enough for 15 years ago does not mean it’s now. Things must evolve and get better but some parts of the iGaming does not.

    1. Hi Steve,

      I agree with you that the casino affiliate industry is light years behind the other affiliate industries.

      There’s a reason why they only provide us with basic stats reports. They’re making too much money from affiliates. If they provide detailed stats many programs would be caught skimming.

      It’s just weird that affiliates send the players to the program but have absolute no control over them whatsoever. I read an article which states that some internet gaming operators have more than 70 percent of their revenue coming from affiliates.

    2. Hi Steve,

      There was a new reply to this great post by Otto so I was just rereading through and noticed i didn’t reply to you properly – sorry about that.

      Yes, you are right, more transparency is the only way to go. If you have nothing to hide then why not show affiliates more info, it helps not just in building trust but in understanding our customers needs and in so doing improving igaming process and systems and then communicating this through our joint marketing efforts with the goal to enhance customer value through helping them to make better igaming decisions and therefore for customers to have better igaming experiences (i bit long winded by I hope to is clear what I mean here).

      Affiliates need their own official audit body.

      All the best

  9. What a truly excellent article. I have noticed many affiliate systems which I suspect are… suspect!

    I have been in touch with Netrefer for example asking for the detailed statistics from one particular casino chain and I received equally short shrift. Netrefer pass the buck, the casino chain passes the buck and the licensing authority don’t do anything.

    I have discussed the matter with a few other affiliates and we came to the conclusion the only way for things to change would be via a class action lawsuit. But all us affiliates need to stand together. This is a horrible business at times with everyone shafting everyone and it needs to stop.

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